S2 Ep 8 John Kolotas, relationships and wellbeing

John Kolotas is an experienced professional in Human Resources and Organisational Development.  Listen to John's insights on strengthening interpersonal relationships, establishing new social networks, and challenges for international students.

John notes options for establishing new social networks, such as social media and online gaming.  While gaming is productive option for some, others need more personal friendships.  Reaching out personally could require a deeper understanding of emotional intelligence and positive psychology.  John recommends the following self-help websites.

• Positive Psychology Center at the University of Pennsylvania.
• The Greater Good Science Center and Resolve Conflict at Work at the University of California, Berkeley

John is in awe of the the resilience of international students and migrants, who speak English as a second language.  He discusses the difficulties  making new friends in Australia and fitting in with Australian culture.  He offers tips for self-help to maintain your confidence through the most challenging times.  Listen further.

TIMELINE
1:23  How social relationships evolve
6:15  Maintaining self-esteem in lonely times
8:30  Prioritising social settings - even online!
12:50 Communicating to build social relationships
15:26 Social mistakes and conflict, what to do now?
19:07 Understanding unresolved conflict
20:32 Pandemic and impacts on interpersonal relationships
22:20 Who to turn to for personal support?
23:00 Bore out, professional growth, and self-motivation
26:09 Career options in Human Resources

Chapters

• 1:23 How social relationships evolve
• 6:15 Maintaining self-esteem in lonely times
• 8:30 Prioritising social settings - even online!
• 12:50 Communicating to build social relationships
• 15:26 Social mistakes and conflict, what to do now?
• 19:07 Understanding unresolved conflict
• 20:32 Pandemic and impacts on interpersonal relationships
• 22:20 Who to turn to for personal support?
• 23:00 Bore out, professional growth, and self-motivation
• 26:09 Career options in Human Resources

Transcript

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The Community podcast
 is a platform for the wider

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community to share ideas and insights
 that can guide us on our professional

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and academic development. 

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It's easy to listen
 to tackle some hard hitting issues,

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and we think it's a great way 

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to appreciate diverse perspectives on life
 learning and careers.

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Hi, I'm John Kolotas I'm a human resource
 professional, currently

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working in Relationships Australia, New
 South Wales, and great to be here.

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On today's episode,
 we have John Kolotas an alumnus of Katlin

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Professional with nearly 20 years
 in human resources and people and culture.

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How are you doing today, John? 

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Yeah, doing really well, thanks. 

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Working from home, enjoying the sun.

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Glad to be a part of this podcast. 

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Yeah. It's great
 to have you, sir. John, you

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work now as Pennsy business partner
 at Relationships Australia.

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You've also been on
 I learned James Anapolis is, of course,

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advisory panel, which is great
 that you've participated

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in sort of forming
 some of the studies at KB's or kepe.

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So you have some expertize on personality
 as it relates to

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wellbeing, interpersonal relationships.

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How would you approach
 the idea of interpersonal wellness?

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There are so many,
 so many components of that, I suppose.

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So if you're talking about,
 you know, the social relationships

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and and how they
 they sort of play out, I think.

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Yeah, there is there is just so much
 I think that you can cover.

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And depending on who you're talking about

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and referring to,
 I think it makes a big difference as well.

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So if you're talking about
 international students, obviously it's

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not something that I can
 I can speak to from personal experience.

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But when I was considering this,

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I think it was it's 

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really interesting
 because I'm a naturally curious person.

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And I think also due to my profession,
 I often have conversations

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or observations around
 a lot of things like this.

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And I think so much of it is of people's

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ability to to build interpersonal skills.

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Is communication
 just being one part of it?

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I think it is very much influenced
 by their experience,

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by the environment in which they live.

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But if you look at it across the board,
 I actually think that

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there are also some real similarities
 between what people do at a local level,

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experience, as well as those in

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an international state,
 from an international student perspective.

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And I think what I've been really
 considering actually for a long

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time, it's a conversation
 I've had with many colleagues 

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and even just friends, is why,

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you know, when when I speak
 to people who had moved,

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a lot of people find it really difficult
 to settle and to fit in, to meet people

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and to build friendship networks
 in particular with locals.

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And I think this is similar. 

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Even when my grandparents
 came to Australia back in the fifties

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from from Cyprus, is the the communities
 in the initial stages anyway.

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They always they will banded together
 because it's you know, there's

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support there and there's similar 

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experiences and and culture
 and and and that type of stuff .

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So I think that plays out,
 you know, even even to this day.

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And it's interesting, if you contrast that
 sometimes to people who come here

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on holiday, even, they might have
 a slightly different experience.

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And I think it's it's
 almost like a mindset. Right. 

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So if you're coming in on a holiday,
 you're having fun, you're probably

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more likely to be a bit more outgoing
 because you're on a high.

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And and so you might be able to interact
 with locals that are different

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on a different level. 

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But I think once you move
 here, it's an interesting concept.

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And I don't know
 whether social media exacerbates things.

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There's a lot of research around
 how social media impacts mental health,

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but I think it also 

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surely has to impact our social skills.

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If so much of what are in
 social interaction is virtual,

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it's online, it's via Instagram
 or WhatsApp or whatever it is.

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I just I feel like
 it has to have an impact

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on people's ability to converse and build
 relationships on a Face-To-Face basis.

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And that's international students.
 That's local, that's everyone.

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And you sort of see you play out a lot
 with the proliferation of the tinder's

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and all this type of stuff that I think
 it's it's also symptomatic of the way,

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probably not as confident in communicating
 and building relationships on a

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real sort of human way.

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It's it's just that
 the whole environment has changed.

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I really struggled
 to provide any solutions

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other than as much as possible,
 just trying to to make sure that you

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prioritizing social settings
 instead of doing that from.

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Living room couch 

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with your mobile phone in hand,
 because it is just like anything

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it is, it's a skill 

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and it's a building confidence to do it
 if you're not going out there.

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And I'm not saying it's easy. 

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I think there are heaps of barriers
 that will probably lead

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to people finding that difficult, that
 if you don't go out there, you don't try.

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It's like anything. It's a skill that
 you have to build and you've got to learn.

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And it's trial and error
 and talked about that way.

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John, I I'm looking back
 and I'm thinking about

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when I immigrated
 and I was trying to fit in

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and I was trying to get into understanding
 and making friends with Australians.

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And I had the social skills.

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English is my first language. 

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I was very comfortable,
 but I stood out because I had an accent.

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And then I started noticing
 that I stood out 

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because I felt desperate and dateless. 

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Who wants to go to a movie by yourself
 or go to a party all by on your lonesome?

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So it really started
 affecting my self-esteem, myself efficacy.

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I started doubting myself and wondering,
 is there something wrong with me?

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Why don't people like me when we're trying
 to establish these social relationships?

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And we're brand new to a country. 

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We don't have any friends. 

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How do we keep up our self-esteem
 and how do we make you mentioned

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how do we get off the couch and make sure
 that we practice in the social setting

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to try to make acquaintances
 and fit into the community?

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I think something that
 you've you just touched on then, right?

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So some would say that, as you said,

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you're still a white man, a white male
 who speaks English

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and you still went through
 a similar type of experience.

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And I think that is really powerful,
 because I think a lot of the time

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people may feel like they. 

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It is it's them.
 And it's a personal thing.

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They don't realize that everyone
 experiences that to a certain extent.

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And so I think once you. 

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If if once you really understand
 that and believe

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that it takes some of the pressure off,
 and so maybe then it's about

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just understanding
 that you will not click with everyone,

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and in particular, if you're moving here
 from another country, it will take

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it will potentially take longer. 

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I'm always astounded
 and absolutely in awe at the

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the resilience of people who move here,

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especially from places that the English
 is not the first language.

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And even just recognizing that, practicing
 that sort of self compassion to say,

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you know, you have you have done something
 that is absolutely incredible

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and and very difficult. 

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And so you've got to give yourself credit
 for that, because, again,

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I think it's about building yourself
 up and making sure that your.

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That you have a level of self-confidence 

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that can persist
 through some challenging time.

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I think that persistence
 is definitely a key,

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and I can relate to the conversation a lot
 when I first came

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to Australia six years ago. 

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I couldn't make any
 Aussie friends for a while.

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I encountered sort of insular
 groups of people who had gone to school

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together for a long time. 

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And for years, my my friends here were
 all Chinese and Latinos and Indians.

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Now, if, of course, discovered
 Aussies make wonderful

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friends and, you know,
 it just took a while to break into that.

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I'm actually really interested
 in your comments on prioritizing

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social settings, because just an anecdote

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over a younger brother, he's
 much younger, a pre-teen,

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and he spends all his day
 and night on a computer or phone.

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At first, I thought
 I felt like an old fuddy duddy.

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I thought jeez. He must be building
 no social skills at all.

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But then I looked closer
 and I talked with him about it.

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And it's just the norm for
 for them. It's the norm.

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They play together online.

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They build things together online. 

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They interact in every way
 that you can think of.

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So that might be a new norm.

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And what do you think that might hold
 for the future if it's moving that way?

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You know, upon reflection,
 I think that is a really valid point,

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because there are certain people
 that would actually prefer that type

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of social interaction
 for different reasons.

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You know, the gaming community is massive
 and it's very social

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and it's very collegiate. 

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And and I think there are
 some absolutely fantastic

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characteristics that everyone
 could learn from.

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So for some, that will be enough
 and more than enough.

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This is where it's such an individual
 type of approach

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is really hard to give a one size
 fits all type of advice.

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And again, I think so
 much of what we talk about has to be

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that you need a level of self-awareness
 and emotional intelligence,

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because that way you understand

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what your preferences are,
 what your strengths and weaknesses are.

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Once you understand that,
 you're better able to try and identify

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what actions you can take
 or what things you can try

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to improve your experience.

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I wonder today I have thought
 about that, too.

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I've wondered today with Karen's 

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comment about social media
 and just the ability to stay connected,

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even though it's electronic,
 not face to face,

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that it must be easier for people
 than when I came.

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And really, it was too expensive to even
 call home, call back to the United States

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and to get a letter back and forth, took
 about four months on a ship.

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That's how instantaneous
 my communication was.

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And then I discovered
 that one of the best ways to make Ozon

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friends and I do agree with Kira,
 and I did have a trouble.

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I was in I had international friends
 everywhere, and I started making

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Ozon friends by cracking jokes at myself.

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So if I said a funny word
 with an American accent,

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I really played it up
 and got everyone else to laugh.

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I'm curious what you think that kind
 of self-deprecating sense of humor.

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Of laughing at myself
 seemed to work for me.

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But I'm curious what you think. 

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Is that a good strategy 

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or is that just something individually
 that I was willing to do?

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I think so much depends on the person
 and the context.

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I think self-deprecating humor is in
 some ways can be good.

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In others, maybe not. 

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So being able to joke about yourself
 shows that you've

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potentially got a level of vulnerability
 and confidence, that

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you realize that you're 

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not perfect and you're happy to
 to make a joke about it.

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You could also represent underlying,
 know, self-confidence issues or

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or a lack of self-worth and value,

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trying to understand what's driving it
 and the reasons why you're doing it.

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If you're doing it,
 because you're being very deliberate.

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And it's and it's a strategy
 that you're trying to trying to utilize

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and potentially that
 that can work for you .

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The other concern
 I have about it sometimes is, again,

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depending on the context,
 it could play into stereotypes.

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So if the self deprecation is around

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racial characteristics, for example,

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the question is, is that exacerbating
 an underlying cultural racism?

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Casual racism, as we like to damit

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in Australia, is
 if it's any less damaging.

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That would be my concerns, I suppose.

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I can see both sides
 of what you're saying, 

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because I, I did make fun of myself a lot.

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00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:43,800
And at first I thought
 that I was the funniest guy in history

215
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:44,960
because everyone laughed. 

216
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,000
And then I started feeling really insecure
 about, oh, my goodness, I'm I'm weird.

217
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,800
If you're talking about communication

218
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:58,320
as a foundation of interpersonal
 relationships and socializing,

219
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,440
what are some of the common
 from your experience, what are some common

220
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,280
barriers to communication or problems
 that people might experience?

221
00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:10,520
I do think that level 

222
00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,360
of self-awareness and emotional
 intelligence is really important.

223
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:19,080
So is being able to understand
 how your your communication

224
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,760
and the things that drive
 the way you communicate,

225
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,080
what makes you communicate the way you do. 

226
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,080
I think if you ask people 

227
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,480
and they have to think about it,
 they might be able to explain it.

228
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,560
But I just don't think we think about it
 enough and at the right time.

229
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,560
And I think a lot of it 

230
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:43,560
seems to be an inability
 to genuinely listen.

231
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,320
And make a genuine attempt

232
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,520
to understand other people's

233
00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:55,360
positions, situations and experiences.

234
00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,840
And so we we tend to talk at each other

235
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,560
a lot and any pay
 sort of cursory attention

236
00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:06,440
and time to actually listening to people,
 because we usually then

237
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,120
that to we're trying to think about
 what we're going to say in response.

238
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,160
We're not actually listening
 to what they're saying.

239
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,080
So I think that's a really
 I think that's a really important one,

240
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,560
because it's not just
 if you're debating a certain topic,

241
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:22,400
I think it's genuinely about social
 interactions and building relationships.

242
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,920
If you're having
 a conversation with someone 

243
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,920
and I'm sure everyone's
 had this experience,

244
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,240
you know, you're meeting someone
 for the first time 

245
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,920
and they talk about
 themselves the whole time.

246
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,680
They don't ask you, you know, what are you
 what are you like doing?

247
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,560
You know, what's what are you up to?
 What's your life about?

248
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,680
And you sit there and you think, well,
 maybe he'll ask me at some point.

249
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:43,960
And so it doesn't happen. 

250
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,600
And if it does, it's a five second window
 before they jump back in.

251
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,240
So it's that type of stuff
 that I think it is really

252
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,920
about that level of self-awareness
 and emotional intelligence

253
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,880
to to pick up on cues, to really make sure
 that you're making a genuine attempt to

254
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,000
sort of listen and to understand people

255
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,480
and get to know them and demonstrate
 that you're doing that in some way.

256
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,640
So whether you're playing something back
 or, you know, next time you speak to them,

257
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,560
you say, oh, you know, remember
 you told me about this. You know, people

258
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:17,800
those little things actually make
 a really big impact on people.

259
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:19,440
Definitely a skill. 

260
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:26,360
And if you work at it, I do think
 people can improve and improve outcomes.

261
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,200
So, you know, with a skill,
 there's a mistake.

262
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:34,360
So I'm really wondering what's a good way
 to when you encounter conflict?

263
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:39,600
What's a good, emotionally intelligent
 way to try to resolve it? Yeah,

264
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,080
it will always depend
 on the situation in the people.

265
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:46,520
Right, because if you think about it, 

266
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,360
everyone has different
 appetites for conflict.

267
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,280
You know, some people avoid it.
 Some people accommodate it.

268
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,160
Others are more collaboratives. 

269
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,440
Others are more competitive and combative.

270
00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,000
So, as you said, really understanding your

271
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:06,320
your general reaction to conflict
 and how you deal with it is important,

272
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,920
but then also to think about it
 from the other person's perspective.

273
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,280
So just stopping and taking the time,
 I think is really important

274
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,800
because it can look so different conflict
 like it can be just

275
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,080
really subtle, passive aggressive ,
 or it can be very overt,

276
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,120
you know, aggressive, verbal shot,

277
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,240
whatever it is, it's
 going to require a different response.

278
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,120
I don't know whether I'm just
 getting older or I've done more reading,

279
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,880
but one of the things
 that I've noticed in myself in a change is

280
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,440
even if I'm really frustrated

281
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:47,200
by someone's behavior or that, you know ,
 if they're creating conflict, I'm really

282
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,080
I have this tendency now,
 which I never did,

283
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,560
is to try and understand
 what's driving that behavior.

284
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,480
And I think this is potentially, you
 know, comes again from from being in H.R.

285
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,920
You often dealing with situations where
 there's interpersonal conflict at work

286
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:02,760
and whatever it is. 

287
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,600
And and or even if I'm trying to coach
 a leader and I see that, you know,

288
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,400
their behavior is is not great,
 you know, that they're complaining

289
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:11,320
about an employee. 

290
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,720
But actually, you know, when I
 when I observe things, I can see that

291
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,680
the way that they communicate or, you
 know, is creating conflict and tension.

292
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,720
But in order for me to influence change

293
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,040
in behavior that creates
 conflict in particular,

294
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,560
you have to understand what's driving,
 what's driving the behavior.

295
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:31,280
It's like a curiosity. 

296
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,160
And what I've found actually is
 when sometimes when that plays out,

297
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,920
the mere fact that you're curious
 and you're asking questions,

298
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,920
and if you're doing it in a genuine way ,
 trying to understand that person's

299
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,840
position, it's amazing
 how much you can diffuse the situation.

300
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,800
So because so often
 people just want to feel like

301
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,800
they're being heard
 or they feel threatened

302
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,800
in some way, they feel like
 they going to lose something.

303
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,840
And so it becomes an aggressive
 defensive response.

304
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,160
And that could be a fear of losing
 a lot of different things.

305
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:07,640
It could be about power. 

306
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,240
It could be about respect
 or it could be a bunch of things.

307
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:14,000
So it's just really trying to understand. 

308
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,520
And I think that what that needs
 and sometimes it'll be easier

309
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,720
than other times is just to stop, stop

310
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,560
and try and reframe things in your head,

311
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,200
because your natural inclination
 is to jump right back in.

312
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,320
Practicing that empathy, putting yourself
 in that person's shoes, if nothing else,

313
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:39,960
then a a tactical strategic step
 is important and will and will help you.

314
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,080
John, I like your comment about empathy,
 because I've got to say,

315
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,680
when I was younger,
 my approach to conflict was either to run

316
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,280
because I thought that I was in trouble
 and someone didn't like me

317
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,560
or to fight like crazy, smash him. 

318
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,040
So they never had conflict with me again. 

319
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:59,760
And over growing up, basically, I learned
 that empathy to try to look at conflict

320
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:05,040
as the other person feeling uncomfortable
 rather than some faults inherent in me.

321
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,680
You made me reflect. 

322
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,120
So sometimes unresolved conflict,
 I suppose, is probably

323
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:13,160
not understanding
 the other person's point of view.

324
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,240
And even if you understand it,
 you might not be showing that you do.

325
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,080
Often people do understand. 

326
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,640
They know very well
 what the other person is going through,

327
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,640
but they're not demonstrating
 that to the other person.

328
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,440
So it really depends. 

329
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,200
You know, like if you
 if you're being bullied 

330
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,240
and you've got to be bashed up,
 like I'm not saying take

331
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,360
you know, take a deep breath and try
 and put yourself in that person's shoes

332
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,640
like a context is important.

333
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,520
Yeah, I think there is a real opportunity,
 even if you have no interest

334
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,920
in becoming friends with this person
 or even really care about, have

335
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,960
a good working relationship for nothing
 more than your own, your own benefit.

336
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,880
It can be a strategic benefit
 to you to approach things this way.

337
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,720
I'm not interested about conflict
 and relationships,

338
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,600
Australia to learn more about that.

339
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,680
We weren't going to make this show

340
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,120
so focused on on the pandemic,
 but it's been 18 months.

341
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,040
And here in Sydney, we've just entered
 another four weeks lockdown.

342
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,400
So I just want to know how,

343
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,800
you know, psychiatrists, psychologists
 and counselors around the country.

344
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,880
They're booked out
 interpersonal conflicts,

345
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,640
because the domestic
 the domestic norm, the domestic lifestyle

346
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,280
has been totally turned upside
 down by the pandemic around the world.

347
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,840
So I well, I would be interested to know
 how has the pandemic

348
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:38,920
and whether it's lockdowns or what, 

349
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,960
how has that affected
 the interpersonal relationships?

350
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:46,440
And and what is relationships
 Australia doing to mediate that?

351
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:53,080
Covid has exacerbated already
 underlying and existing social problems.

352
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,320
And it's maybe created some others.

353
00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:58,880
So there are a couple of parts to it, 

354
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,200
so there's a general economic 

355
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,200
downturn element,
 but there's also a lockdown element where,

356
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:10,000
you know, in particular, you
 then dealing with things like isolation,

357
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:16,080
whether that's to poor single
 people like me or the elderly

358
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,400
or homelessness, those sorts of things.

359
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,280
What we've also noticed
 is there's been a significant

360
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,640
increase in things like marriage problems,

361
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,920
in particular, domestic family
 violence has significantly increased.

362
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,840
And it's actually really concerning that,
 even things like a sort of graph

363
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,840
this week to think around spending habits.

364
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,200
I think at one stage, one of the highest
 increases was gambling, for example.

365
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,360
So you can understand
 the sort of implications

366
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:49,120
that that has on relationships. 

367
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:52,880
So there has been an incredible impact

368
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,840
from an individual
 and a family perspective

369
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:02,000
and from a community perspective
 that we are we are not coping with.

370
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,800
So, you know, funding has increased
 over the last 18 months.

371
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,280
But from what I understand,
 it's from a very low base.

372
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:16,320
And so a lot of our programs,
 most of them, from what I understand,

373
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:22,560
have huge waiting lists in particular
 and domestic and family violence,

374
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,960
men's behavior change type of programs
 where we work not only with

375
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:33,840
perpetrators of family violence,
 but also with victims. It's female.

376
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:39,280
We even have a specific program
 to help male victims of domestic violence.

377
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,640
The impact is across the board.

378
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:46,280
And as much as possible,
 we try and we try and provide services,

379
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,760
whether it's counseling or group
 training workshops

380
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,400
or even just referrals
 to other organizations and services.

381
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,360
So there's a bunch of different things
 that that we can do.

382
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:05,000
It's just about having the funding
 and the ability to meet the need.

383
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,080
And at the moment, it's it's that's not
 that's not happening.

384
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,280
OK, well, I appreciate you being so candid
 and your response.

385
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,160
I understand you're there in H.R., but
 actually that was really comprehensive.

386
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,480
I guess I just wanted to get at. 

387
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,960
If somebody is experiencing
 some interpersonal conflicts and they're

388
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,240
they're in lockdown or something,
 what what should they do?

389
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,720
You know, what should I do if I'm if I'm

390
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,360
having troubles at home in Australia,
 what would you recommend?

391
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,880
Yeah, I mean, we
 have relationship counseling

392
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,800
and there are plenty of organizations
 that do a bunch of different things,

393
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,000
whether it's depending on your situation,
 if it's interpersonal stuff,

394
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,200
they're a bunch of organizations
 that will provide it,

395
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,520
even just free resources
 or counseling sessions or group sessions.

396
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:56,160
There are there are there are a lot
 of organizations that provide support.

397
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,520
It is difficult, though,
 sometimes to find them.

398
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,960
And then sometimes if you do,
 you might not be able to get in

399
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:04,200
as quickly as you want to.

400
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,160
John, if we could
 turn our focus on to work,

401
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,680
we have in, you know, workplaces
 and then we talk about burnout,

402
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,400
and then recently we've talked
 about pour out infests.

403
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,960
You got to ask yourself
 what's where's the bottom coming from?

404
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,000
Are you bored with job
 and the profession as a whole?

405
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,920
Or is it just that in this particular
 organization you've stayed knighted,

406
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,800
you're not feeling challenged,
 you being overlooked 

407
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,680
for promotions or whatever it is? 

408
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,040
The first try and reflect
 on what it is, is the problem.

409
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,240
And then you can try
 and figure out what you can do about it.

410
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,160
You have the option
 to try something different.

411
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:46,720
Again, depending on economic situation,
 your financial situation

412
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,120
and family obligations,
 all that sort of stuff. People have

413
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,520
a different maybe capacity to

414
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,040
change things or make big changes
 in career and stuff like that.

415
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,120
But then if it's just
 that you're in an in a role,

416
00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:04,040
you like what you do generally,
 but you've stagnated.

417
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,240
There are a bunch of things
 that you can do. 

418
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,680
And I think one of the really, again,
 it really is to reflect on what it is

419
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,600
that you have. You got hit. 

420
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,040
Is it because you haven't done enough
 to keep yourself engaged?

421
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:22,480
Is it that the organization
 as a type of culture or leadership style

422
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,720
that dampens your engagement and you

423
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,160
then are able to try and figure out
 some steps that you can take?

424
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,800
But if if it's more about yourself, then,
 you know, how are you?

425
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,200
How are you keeping yourself motivated? 

426
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,120
What motivates you to even know, you know,

427
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,000
what is it that would change
 your motivation, what's missing,

428
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,120
and then try and work towards
 feeling that gap?

429
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,920
You know, it doesn't
 have to be promotions. 

430
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,920
You know, if you've got a certain
 skillset that you don't

431
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,760
feel is being utilized
 or if you've got a passion

432
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,480
that you really want to get more involved
 in, then maybe there are projects.

433
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,160
Maybe it's even a mentoring relationship.

434
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,680
There are a bunch of things
 that you can do or you can go out

435
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:11,840
and learn more. The pace of change
 is just faster and faster.

436
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,200
And if you're not continually learning
 new skills and relevant skills,

437
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,080
you will make yourself redundant
 and your boy yourself, because all of the

438
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:23,960
more repetitive or the automatable tasks
 will be automated . Right.

439
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,840
So how how are you keeping yourself
 relevant and interested

440
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,080
and interesting and valuable?

441
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,120
Because that will provide an inherent
 sense of self-worth as well. Right.

442
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,160
And you're learning new things, especially
 if it's stuff that you like doing

443
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,680
and you know that that means
 that you're going to be more attractive to

444
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,120
to organizations. That's a great feeling.

445
00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:48,760
You know, sometimes
 people find it very hard.

446
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,800
I think people get into Iraq
 and they get into this sort of level

447
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,640
of stagnation or complacency or

448
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,000
and or helplessness. And I think.

449
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:02,120
There are plenty of things that you can
 do, you just need to.

450
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,360
You really need to want to do it. 

451
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:06,600
And it's not going to be easy. 

452
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,760
Everyone's not going to be able
 to get a promotion.

453
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,680
I'm not saying I'm not saying that. 

454
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,680
But on this, you try. 

455
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,200
You're never going to know. 

456
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,080
Well, John, as a as a follow up,
 you obviously have

457
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,280
a lot of experience in human resources,
 the way you're speaking about,

458
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:22,920
you know, particularly borio 

459
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,880
just now and what we could do
 to take steps to develop our career.

460
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,080
And I've looked on your LinkedIn profile
 and I see that you are

461
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,520
human resources and organization
 development professional.

462
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,680
So I'd like to know
 what's the difference for somebody who's

463
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,160
looking to follow in a career in H.R.?

464
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,920
What is the difference between human
 resources and organization development?

465
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,520
And how might a new person
 get into the into the field?

466
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,760
Yeah, look, it's
 interesting, I probably probably

467
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,000
a few provisions that have
 so many different ways of talking of

468
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,480
what to call themselves,
 Hajjaj human capital, Baglan culture,

469
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,720
all that type of stuff, but
 essentially human resources, an umbrella

470
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,400
sort of term for that, for our function. 

471
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,960
And within human resources,
 there are probably

472
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,040
a bunch of sub functions or specialties.

473
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,360
So most of my career has been more
 of a generalist business partnering role.

474
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,600
So working with senior leaders
 from everything from the day

475
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,680
to day operational stuff
 to more strategic coaching of leaders,

476
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,440
helping them to develop

477
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,400
their strategies that include people,

478
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,600
strategies, the business
 needs to achieve this and this.

479
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,680
What are the people's strategies
 that we need to put in place?

480
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,640
Part of that might be organizational
 development type of stuff,

481
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,720
and usually I think what we mean
 by organizational development is looking

482
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:53,480
at the the structure of our teams,
 the way we craft jobs

483
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:59,000
and job descriptions, and to look at that
 and then to understand,

484
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:00,880
is that optimal? 

485
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:06,280
Is that working for us now and into the future, considering what might be changing?

486
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,400
So what might we need to change
 from a team structure,

487
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,360
from, you know, how who does what,
 all of that type of stuff.

488
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,920
And then based on all of that,
 what's working, what's not,

489
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,240
and what are the skills
 that we might need to focus more on?

490
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,400
So we've got all
 these are the types of roles we need,

491
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,800
but do we have the people that have
 those capabilities to do those roles?

492
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,560
And if not, what are the ones
 we need to train people on?

493
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,160
So it's it's that type of stuff. 

494
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,800
It's a bit more of a strategic

495
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:44,760
overview of all of the workforce,
 how the how the business is structured

496
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,960
and what what are the key capabilities,

497
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,560
skills and experience
 that you need to make that work.

498
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,000
Well, thank you, John,
 for your time today.

499
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,080
It's been a really great podcast,
 and I think we learned a lot.

500
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,800
We learned that a lot of interpersonal
 wellness can be accomplished

501
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,440
through things like just focusing
 on understanding yourself

502
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,120
and your communication with others.

503
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:09,680
So thanks for coming. 

504
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,520
I really appreciate the opportunity
 to talk to everyone.

505
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:13,360
It's been great. 

506
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,360
If you're feeling unwell
 or in need of help, reach out

507
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,040
to anyone in Australia
 can get immediate mental health support

508
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:25,680
by calling the national lifeline
 on 13, 11, 14 and beyond.

509
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,920
Blue has great 24/7 support staff
 and one three hundred

510
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:35,720
twenty two forty six thirty
 six employees can contact H.R..

511
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,440
Our Access Free Counseling
 KBS students have access to your free

512
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,360
confidential campus counselors. 

513
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,240
Safety and support services such as Sonder
 reach out to your campus student

514
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,000
experience team for friendly guidance
 on accessing these services.