Kaplan Community Podcast
Listen for free to the personal stories of alumni from Kaplan Business School. Join host Kieran Howard, as we share stories about life as a student, life after graduation, future plans, and staying connected. Get involved with us on our KBS Alumni LinkedIn group at https://www.linkedin.com/groups/6567849/, and with Kaplan Business School at www.kbs.edu.au.
Kaplan Community Podcast
S2 E5 Will James and career wellbeing
Will James is National Careers Manager at Kaplan Business School. Will discusses career wellbeing and 'boreout'. He asks, are you chronically bored at work? Are you satisfied or dissatisfied with your career prospects tomorrow? Does your current work set-up your career for success? You're not alone if you feel underwhelmed. A staggering 86% of Will's LinkedIn network feel boreout!
In PART ONE, Will explains what career wellbeing is all about. He shares ways you can reinvigorate yourself at work. Proactively seek new challenges at work. Help your colleagues achieve their career goals. Start conversations with your boss. Stay proactive!
Proactivity depends on mindset. In PART TWO, Will shares his experiences in making a career change. Change is common. The average Australian changes career 5 to 7 times. Change starts by reaching out for support and advice. Listen to Will's advice in PART THREE.
Learn more about boreout in The damaging effects of 'boreout' at work, published on 5 July 2021 by the BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation).
TIMELINE
00:53 PART ONE What is career wellbeing?
01:15 How you feel about your job and career satisfaction
03:11 Job bore out, what Will's research discovered
04:09 Bore out, the phenomenon
07:20 How to reinvigorate yourself
10:45 How to reprioritise your career
13:24 PART TWO The mindset of career wellbeing!
15:19 Identify your passions and purpose with lifelong learning
16:07 Advice for making a big change
18:53 Fitting in with your team at work
22:54 Facing rejection in your job search
25:36 Challenges of international students finding jobs in Australia
29:20 Seek support from alumni associations and career advisers
31:44 Rely on your extended network
34:48 PART THREE Making the change!
35:55 Take your career to the next level
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The Kaplan Community podcast is a platform
for the wider Kaplan community
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to share ideas and insights
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that can guide us on our professional
and academic development.
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It's easy to listen
to tackle some hard hitting issues,
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and we think it's a great way
to appreciate diverse perspectives
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on life learning and careers.
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Hi, my name is Will James,
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and I am the National Careers Manager
at Kaplan Business School.
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So far in season
two of this podcast, we've discussed
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organizational well-being, student
experience and academic well-being.
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And now we will focus
on important concepts related
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to career well-being
and professional well-being.
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So we're joined today by our national
careers manager, Will James.
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Thanks for being on the show, Will.
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Thanks for having me.
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So I'm very interested
to speak with you about this,
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the career well-being
and get your take on it.
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What does career well-being mean to you?
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You know what? For me, it's actually
a relatively it's kind of a new concept.
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It's not really probably something
I've been really aware about.
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I mean, I've only been really aware
in the last five years
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that putting in simply career
well-being to me
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is it's all about
how you feel about your job today.
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It's about how you feel
about your career prospects tomorrow
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and how your work
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is helping you achieve
what you want out of life.
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So when you go to work.
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It's thinking about how it is
going to work actually makes you feel.
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Do you think about where it's taking you?
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Do you feel satisfied with your direction?
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Does it align with your future goals?
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So three, well-being to me isn't
just about how we feel about work then.
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And in fact, when we look at the research,
particularly that's come out of Gallup,
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they're they're saying that career
well-being actually has a huge impact
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across the aspects of your lives.
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And I think ultimately
it comes back to all of us
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individually wanting that sense of purpose
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and having a clearly clear path forward
with opportunities to advance
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and acquire new skills as we kind of go
along professional careers.
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So know in my personal experience,
you know, I didn't feel like
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it's not my purpose
until I was about 27 minutes.
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It's pretty late, but I feel like
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I spent the majority of my 20s
feeling like I was stuck in a rut.
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And I really didn't truly understand
my purpose and my passion
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until, you know, late in my 20s.
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So maybe that explains I mean, to me,
that's what career
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well-being is all about.
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I think that makes a lot of sense
and it sounds really relevant.
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You're absolutely right.
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It can have an effect on all other aspects
of well-being if it's something
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that we spend such a large
chunk of our time doing is working.
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And Will, I actually saw you posted on
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LinkedIn recently about the podcast
that you were going to do.
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You had a survey and
and you were posting your ideas.
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I'm really interested
because I took part in the survey.
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I'm interested if you could share that
with us. I think, you know,
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when I was doing the research,
it kind of came back to that question of,
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you know, a lot of people feel that
sometimes they're in a job
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or they're in a career and they feel like
it's not leading them anywhere.
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They kind of feel like it's
it's stagnating.
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And I think what I think
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the most important thing to recognize
there is that if you feel that your job
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isn't leading you anywhere,
it's your responsibility to change that.
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I think it's great
that you're able to recognize it.
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I think you really need to understand
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that you are the only one
that can change that direction.
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And an example of that
is just generally feeling bored at work.
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When I was doing research for this podcast
in terms of career well-being,
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I found an article by the BBC
that said what they term wore out.
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It doesn't get as much attention as now.
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Experts say that this is a new phenomenon
which occurs across
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industries can result
in really bad health problems for workers.
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So Stambaugh out is basically
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basically means when
you have chronic boredom at work,
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if you have quitting boredom at work,
it can lead to sideswiping slacking,
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but also just general job dissatisfaction
and poor mental health.
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So it's kind of intertwined
with career well-being.
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So anyway, I put it yeah, I to the call up
mining DM's, I wanted to ask my network.
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I thought surely that
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I mean, I have experiences in my life
and in my career as well.
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Surely other people have, too.
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So I put it out on LinkedIn
and I said, you know,
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has anybody so terribly bored in a job
ever had those moments where you're having
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a crisis of groceries or having a crisis
of meaning in your life?
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And the results are staggering.
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I think it was the Post as seen by over
6000 people a dinner.
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It is over a hundred people divided.
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And from that vote, there was a staggering
86 percent of my network
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said that they had felt bore out
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chronic boredom in in their life.
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And not everyone, from CEOs
to business consultants
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to nurses to teachers,
a range of professionals or writing,
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not to mention countless messages
and comments from people saying,
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oh, my God, I stoneface,
you know, people never talk about us.
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It's a taboo topic.
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So I think it's really interesting.
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I think this is something you feel
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when you do feel like
your job is leading nowhere.
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And I think the answer
comes back to the self.
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There is a lot of personal accountability
in feeling that way.
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And it is up to you to make that change.
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And if you're fortunate enough
to be in a job feeling that now, I think
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ultimately it's sort
of having a conversation and start
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having a conversation with ferocity ,
a manager, which is a hard thing to do.
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And I understand that.
But it does start with the conversation.
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You know, for example,
if you really go to your boss and say,
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how can you help change my routine
and my responsibilities?
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How can you help me feel
more stimulated and engaged?
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So it's actually
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actually comes back to good leadership.
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I just hope that, you know,
if you're experienced.
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If you have a great leader or a manager
who can assist there, but if not,
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then maybe that's your calling,
maybe that's the action.
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You have to put some time into building
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an action plan to proactively
make agreements.
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I was going to ask that question
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about your LinkedIn article
and bore out as well, because.
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Well, one of the interesting things
is that we commonly associate
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loneliness with emotional distress
and mental health.
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And another big factor of emotional
well-being is boredom.
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So that leads to a lot of stress.
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So the question it was very interesting
to hear you talk about
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what you can do with your boss in order
to try to reinvigorate your career.
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But did you find things that people can do
personally to take initiative
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on their own, to make their job
more exciting and engaging? Yes, I do.
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What can someone do
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if they feel like they're really bored
and they feel like they're stuck in a rut?
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So what are some practical
things that we can do
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to really navigate out of that?
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And for those playing at home,
they may not really understand
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what that means,
like being stuck in a rut.
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It's a pretty awful feeling.
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It's that feeling that you get when it's
almost like a feeling of resentment,
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like you're caught up in the negative,
pessimistic, low
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patterns of thinking and planning.
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Impossible to get yourself
out of that sun.
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You know, you hate
going to work present today.
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You're thinking about
where am I going tomorrow?
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You know, constantly
questioning, questioning
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whether your work serves a purpose.
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The biggest scheme of life.
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And as you say, Richard, it actually does
lose a lot of mental anguish.
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It makes us feel really awful.
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It's not pleasant. So.
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You know, if you feel like you're
in a rut, you really need to sit down
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and do some deep reflection.
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I think it starts with that
at the very beginning, and that is more
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so that you can start to proactively plan
a way out of that mindset.
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So it starts with thinking about times
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when you've actually really enjoyed
the work that you do.
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When you said when you had felt like
you were doing your best work,
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when you felt motivated
and fully engaged at work or,
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you know, doing something extracurricular.
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I think when you reflect on that
and you visualize those environments
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where you felt really engaged
and really happy.
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Think about the actions
you were doing in that time.
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I think you can start to see
some patterns there.
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So sometimes they ask you
some questions like sit down
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or is a piece of paper and a pen
and do some reflective exercises.
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Ask yourself some questions.
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You know, in that time,
did you have a personal goal
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that wherever you were working,
you worked to help you achieve that?
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Were you surrounded
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by a really great team
and colleagues, people that you respected?
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Did you have an amazing manager
that managed not just managed
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menjou, but empowered you and mentor you?
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And did you feel like
your strengths were being utilized?
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What are your strengths?
What can you play, too?
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So even starting with those questions
and answers allows you to move closer
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to finding what I said
before was your purpose and your passion.
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And that is when you feel truly engaged
and happy at work
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and you feel like you're actually
playing in a bit
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of an action plan together
to get yourself out of that group.
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So you've got me
reflecting on my own journey,
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this discussion of sort
of personal accountability as well.
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I can remember in the first few years
of my career, and right
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when I got to Australia,
I made career decisions based largely on
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how I could get to the next salary bump
or the next title.
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I was very interested in climbing ladders,
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and I'd feel proud of myself and learn
the new responsibilities of a new role.
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But then I'd have a sort of emptiness
because I never actually stopped to see
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is this something
that would make me feel fulfilled?
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So that's that's something that's taken me
actually more focus to land jobs
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that are more aligned.
What would make me feel good?
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How about you in your career?
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What do you think you can do
to actually identify those priorities,
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or have they changed
as your career has progressed?
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My priorities definitely have changed.
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You know, I presented yesterday
on this topic of your personal brand,
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and I gave examples of my personal brand,
and I kind of miss teaching the students
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there about how my personal brand
has changed over the last 10 years.
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You know, I've gone from being a student
to a teacher and a recruitment consultant
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and then somebody who works in careers
in higher education,
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taking on a leadership role.
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Going back to being a student,
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it's constantly changing and evolving
and constantly evaluating.
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I guess you would be your brand
and where you're kind of headed.
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I think the key message for me.
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And I think in terms of
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identifying what your purpose
and your passion is, is
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first starting off with,
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I think we all need to identify
that first mindset for everybody
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and really, truly understand
lifelong learning is integral
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to a long term sustainable career.
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And intertwined with
that is your purpose and your passion.
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I think in today's day and age,
careers are rapidly changing.
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So gone are the days
that where we leave school
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and we have one careers
and the rest of our lives,
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you know, like reaching
probably your parents.
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My parents have the same
career that all lives.
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Professionals today are averaging seven
different careers over their lifetime.
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So it's really important to understand
that your purpose
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and your passion is constantly evolving,
evolving and a growth mindset
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and building that growth mindset
for yourself is integral
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so that you can continue to take on
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and look for opportunities
throughout your professional career.
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And it doesn't restrict
due to one specific area.
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For me, I've just noticed
that it's changed quite a lot.
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And I think the one thing
that has kept me on this journey and
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gotten me to where I am
today is just by being my mentor
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and constantly looking for opportunities
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to learn and grow and implement
my learnings in every job that I've had.
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It's kind of resented
so many different opportunities for me.
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But at the same time,
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I've been able to identify new passions
and new purposes along the way.
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I've identified them
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and I've kind of gone with them as I as
time has gone on, you know?
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Well, I've been listening
and you've actually made me think
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of lifelong learning and mindset
in a different way.
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So, for example,
I'm reflecting on my career
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and thinking of the times
when on a Sunday evening
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I start regretting
having to wake up on Monday to go to work.
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And by Friday, I'm
just so excited to leave.
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And each time I reach that
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point in my career,
I've reached it on three different jobs.
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And I finally had the courage to leave.
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And it was the best thing I ever did,
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because the next job
I got was so much better.
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I only ever improved.
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So you may be thinking
your comment about mindset.
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And I think when I reach that point,
I had a very fixed mindset.
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And then when I was able to bounce back
and recover some respect,
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gain the confidence and find a new job,
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I feel like I had a real personal growth
and some real emotional resilience.
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So I'm wondering,
you've made me think of mindset
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now of growth mindset and lifelong
learning is being pretty much the same.
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Would you agree with that?
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Yeah, absolutely, 100 percent.
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You're one of your question
was like for me personally,
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how have I personally stayed engaged
and move my career forward?
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And he comes back to that same
principle of lifelong learning.
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And ultimately that that's kind
of how I've been able
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to understand what I actually
am passionate about in life.
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Because, I mean, you guys know,
like three years ago, I started my MBA,
255
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ABSs, and I simply did that
because I had access to learning.
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But that experience ended up
being transformational.
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It took three years.
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But, you know, it was
it was truly amazing.
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It gave me a lot of zest and energy.
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And, yes, it was tiring
and challenging at times.
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But, you know, I did that
because I wanted to apply new money.
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So my work. You know,
I always have an ultimate goal.
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I'd love to have a business one day.
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And so there was also some interest
there to learn about.
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But, you know, I think it does, Richard.
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It really comes back to.
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Yeah, identifying your passions
and your purpose
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and then realigning that
with this concept of loss,
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learning and having a thirst for learning
and a growth mindset.
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I think it all intertwines.
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00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,920
And ultimately for me,
that has allowed me to have a pretty good
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and stable career
wellbeing throughout throughout my life.
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So there's been moments of ups
and downs like anyone, but
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generally that has
kept me on the right path
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and drives all of the careers initiatives
that sort of helped students
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00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,520
towards employability,
towards getting jobs and internships.
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00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,720
And if we're talking about
maybe more established
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00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,680
professionals and the idea
of being stuck in a rut.
279
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,800
But we've mentioned the idea
several times of,
280
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well, look to your next step
or consider your priorities.
281
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,520
Then I would ask,
do you have any advice for
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00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,320
somebody who is seeking
to make a big change?
283
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,240
There's seven careers
within a lifetime now.
284
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,440
So what happens if you realize,
285
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,440
well, geez, I'm working in health care,
but I really belong in tech?
286
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,560
And so how do you go about doing that,
making a big shift in your career?
287
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,960
It's a good question.
288
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,880
I would say that.
289
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,760
We tend to underestimate the importance
290
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:39,120
and the value of transferable
skills to Korean movies.
291
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,280
I think that is such a poignant part
292
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,800
of selling your soul in a new discipline
293
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:50,760
or industry is really identifying
what those transferable skills
294
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are and in and in a lot of cases.
295
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,800
I mean, you know, we were predominantly
in the business sector, but
296
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,600
so many cases where employees
say, look, we just wait.
297
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:07,480
Soft skills, transferable soft skills,
so much heavier than technical skills.
298
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,840
We see that in so
many different industries.
299
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,200
You know, soft skills are things like
communication, collaboration
300
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,440
skills, resilience, emotional intelligence
301
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,280
initiative, work
ethic analysis, critical thinking skills.
302
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,040
So it's identifying what
those soft skills are,
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00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,480
things that you feel
you're really good, that can strengths
304
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:33,600
and then being able to solidify those
and sell them to prospective employees
305
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,800
when you are making those career pivots,
because ultimately, too,
306
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,040
it comes down to culture
and teams that we can take skill.
307
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,840
But as long as you come to us
with these really enhanced soft skills
308
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,280
and an understanding
and a great understanding of, you know,
309
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,840
collaboration and emotional intelligence,
we can teach you the rest.
310
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:54,920
And I think that's it.
311
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,400
In the case of CVS,
we we even hire internally within.
312
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,080
We really look to that team
and culture fields and a well-rounded
313
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:06,200
professional that really has great
transferable social skills.
314
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,280
Less so than technical skills,
because we know that we can teach that.
315
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,920
So, yeah, I mean, the top three skills
demanded by employees today is customer
316
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,400
service organization, time management
and digital literacy.
317
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,760
You can't tell me that,
you know, any job that you would have
318
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,680
do you wouldn't have those three things.
319
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,440
And if you don't, then you have a goal
320
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,240
there to really hone in on those skills
and make some improvements
321
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,800
because they're the top three skills
demanded by employees today.
322
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,040
Well, I'm really keen
on this idea of team fits
323
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,160
and how to make sure that I can
work well with my colleagues.
324
00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:48,960
But, you know, Kiran
and I are both international.
325
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:49,920
We've come to Australia.
326
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,880
We've had to learn how to work
with Australian companies.
327
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,800
So I'm curious what your opinion is.
328
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,680
How do I as an international student,
as a as a migrant?
329
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:01,440
How do I understand?
330
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,440
How do I learn how to fit in with the team
331
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,800
that I'm trying to work
with here in Australia?
332
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,640
And when I was thinking
about this question, I actually spoke
333
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,080
to some of my team members
who work in my team,
334
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,080
the majority of which
were international students.
335
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,360
And I spoke to Nisha Chishti.
336
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:19,400
She's one of my colleagues.
337
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,040
She's originally from India.
338
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,040
And I said to her, you know, how is that?
339
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,200
How did you deal with struggling
to fit into Australia?
340
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,320
Did you experience any of that challenge
or any of those struggles?
341
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,240
And she said, say, of course she did.
342
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,160
One thing that she did was
which is really cool,
343
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,800
she actually learned
as much as she could about rugby.
344
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,520
So she knew that was kind of like a topic
345
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,080
that she could use to break the ice
and kind of get to know people.
346
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,000
And she would just start talking
about rugby in like the staff room.
347
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,280
And then it started to this conversation
348
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,320
started happening, happen,
and she started to make friends.
349
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,160
And I think that's just such
350
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,800
a wonderful, proactive idea
to kind of get a conversation going.
351
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,440
And she knew, you know,
she said the importance of learning
352
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,120
like your words and even understanding
Australian humor
353
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:13,320
between in Australia, I think we have
we slang and we banter, but it's key.
354
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,680
It's key to the Australian
workplace environment.
355
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,920
And it's that, you know,
even understanding colloquialisms
356
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,760
is these watch Australian TV and film, you
know, absorb as much of that as you can
357
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:30,080
so that you understand the context
in which people converse in Australia.
358
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,080
Somatically Kim comes from Malaysia.
359
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,360
And she was saying that
when she first came out to study
360
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:41,000
in Australia, she found the assimilation
process really challenging.
361
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,120
She said that she noticed a lot
362
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:46,480
of the Australian students
kind of stuck together as they all kind of
363
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,200
went to high school together
and they had their little cliques.
364
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,000
And she said she just started by
365
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,320
by forcing herself
to have small conversations with people
366
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,440
to actually figure out
what they were talking about.
367
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:03,160
So she wanted to know what topics
they liked talking about
368
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:04,880
in their little groups.
369
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,640
And she said she did that a lot of
and volunteering
370
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,040
at uni and even volunteering
helped her massively.
371
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,840
And from that, she was able
to kind of see our conversations in a way
372
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,320
that she knew people would want to talk
about or be interested in talking about.
373
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,840
And I think, you know, it's tough.
374
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,920
It's challenging
for international students
375
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,920
because so many of them
tend to stick to the
376
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,360
to the bit to the people
from the same background and culture.
377
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,400
Because it's easy and you feel like
a sense of belonging there.
378
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,480
But it's so important
to proactively diversify your friends
379
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,280
tackle's and weakside
with various cultures, because ultimately
380
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,280
that's how you going to learn.
381
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,000
And you're going to feel more comfortable
in various Australian settings.
382
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,960
There are other great things you do like,
you know, language exchange clubs
383
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,360
and meet dot com and, you know,
LinkedIn network groups or associations.
384
00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:01,920
I think it's just about meeting new people
and and really having conversations
385
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,320
even in a small way, able
to learn some of the strange
386
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,760
things that that us
Aussies like to talk about.
387
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,440
I think it's great, the stories
from Kim and Nisha
388
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:19,280
and how it's obviously you can intertwine
social well-being and career as well
389
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:24,160
being and I'd say even as some people
when you say career well-being,
390
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:25,000
they might think
391
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,000
along the lines of financial well-being,
but it's perhaps more of a social thing
392
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,960
and more about purpose,
as we've discussed .
393
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:39,480
Now, your expertize at CVS,
you often are dealing with students
394
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,440
who are trying to get either
their first job in Australia
395
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,520
or perhaps there a job
that's related to their field.
396
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,760
And so there's a lot of job seekers,
397
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,560
there's a lot of discussion
of recruitment practices.
398
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,080
The main thing that stands out to me
about that when I
399
00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:01,920
when I think about recruitment
is the rejection that I faced
400
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,720
when I go and apply for jobs
and I look at my Wellby
401
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,480
and think, geez, I've applied for
who knows how many jobs,
402
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,800
but you either get a
no thank you or no response at all .
403
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,240
And it's a bit disheartening.
404
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:16,880
So what would you say
405
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,280
to that about the recruitment process
and what would you recommend?
406
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:22,600
Yeah, it's a good watch.
407
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,280
You know, it's it's a universal feeling,
Kiran, like everybody has has
408
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,840
has been through that has been rejected
by a job, an interview.
409
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,200
And it's it's not nice. It's
an awful feeling.
410
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:35,880
And I think, you know,
411
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,280
there are some barriers
for international students.
412
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,800
And I know that sometimes we've seen them
take it really personally,
413
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,720
but that is not always our number one
to to our students.
414
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,280
It's to never take rejection personally.
415
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,280
Often it does not mean
416
00:23:55,280 --> 00:24:00,240
that you are inferior and that you're not
good enough compared to other candidates.
417
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:03,880
A lot of the time it comes down to things
like cultural fit.
418
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:05,840
We talked about that before.
419
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:06,560
You know, you could have
420
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,360
200 applicants for one role in
any one person is successful.
421
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:13,920
So already it's a challenge,
right? Applying for a job.
422
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:14,680
So even if you get a
423
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,480
call for an interview,
that's a huge plus think massive positive
424
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,440
to be called for an interview
out of 200 applicants like. Well done.
425
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,920
I think it's important
when you're dealing with rejection to
426
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,160
really take the time to thank the company.
427
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,680
And, you know, the recruiter
or hiring manager
428
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,160
for taking the time,
because you just never know when you might
429
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,600
encounter them again in the future.
430
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:42,920
They may come back to you
431
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,880
in six or 12 months and say, look,
we met you last year for this role.
432
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,320
We've we've got this role here.
433
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,040
Would you be interested?
434
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,400
We've seen that happen
countless times before.
435
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,320
So don't burn your bridges,
is what we would say.
436
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,080
Often everything happens for a reason.
437
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,320
I say that to my team all the time.
438
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,360
So don't worry about the small things.
439
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:05,560
They work out so.
440
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,680
So for your good
and in line with your destiny or
441
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,600
any learning from your gaps
and your shortcomings
442
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,400
by asking for that feedback
when you are rejected, see is key.
443
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,200
So that can really assure you
that you can sell any of those gaps
444
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,200
and position yourself better.
445
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:28,120
Moving forward, it kind of steers
your job search in a different direction.
446
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:32,200
Sometimes to actually asking for
feedback is really key
447
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,520
for you making improvements
to your job search.
448
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,400
Well, you mentioned earlier
about some of the challenges
449
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,040
that international students
may face in trying to get that first job
450
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,480
and to launch their career in a Cabeus.
451
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,880
We really are sincerely interested
in getting our students employed.
452
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,120
But what are the main services
and how can we try to help
453
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,640
students achieve that career wellbeing?
454
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,400
Yeah, look, I think when you
when you become a CBIA student, I say
455
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,480
to my students, it's really important
to engage with Thackeray's Central Taim.
456
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,320
I'm biased when I say that,
but I genuinely mean it.
457
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,840
I say start by engaging
with the central team,
458
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,040
especially in your karoui,
as early in your degree as you can,
459
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,760
because it takes time for us to really,
460
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,880
truly understand
what a student's career goals are.
461
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,920
And their career trajectory is in line
462
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,440
with what we were talking about
throughout this podcast episode.
463
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,600
Compassion, understanding,
what your purpose and your passion
464
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,920
needed, something
that you can usually work out overnight.
465
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,760
It take some time to figure that out.
466
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,040
So, you know, we really spend the time
in each and every student
467
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,040
that we meet with
to identify their strengths
468
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,200
and we use those strengths to provide
career guidance.
469
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,760
I mean, it I'm constantly
driving our students
470
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,960
towards building those glorious mindsets,
as we said before.
471
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,840
And a key part of
that is building up our students
472
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:02,000
so that they can become
as resilient as possible
473
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,440
to equip them with the tools
and techniques to make
474
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:11,240
some of those career tidbits, particularly
in a rapidly changing employment market.
475
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,880
And, you know, even right now
476
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,160
with Kobad happening,
resilience is more important than ever.
477
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,120
I think if you been able
to get through this
478
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,680
in the last year
and a half studying or working U.S.
479
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,120
You probably displayed a huge amount
of resilience, which is great.
480
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,880
We're always encouraging
students, Richard, to try new things.
481
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,160
We we often say you need to fail
to learn those lessons.
482
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,560
A great way for students to try new things
483
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,320
is by taking on internships
and volunteering.
484
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,240
It's a great way
to see potentially what you like
485
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,800
and what you don't like in an industry
or in a particular career field,
486
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,440
because it allows you to ultimately
see your career in various directions.
487
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,160
I mean, we have counselors
located in every campus and CVS.
488
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,800
They are an invaluable resource to provide
that confidential mental health support.
489
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,880
We're talking about
career will be wellbeing impacts
490
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,520
so many other parts of your life.
491
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,560
It's important to have
a service like that.
492
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,360
Even our lecturers,
our lecturers of business leaders
493
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:21,920
in our unseals and a wonderful
sounding boards.
494
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,760
And sometimes, you know, Richard,
you know, this year
495
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,800
are sometimes a counselor, too,
which is which is great.
496
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:28,840
But, you know, you can
497
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,560
you can rely on that to have
those conversations as a student with
498
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,000
with our lecturers.
499
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,560
I guess what I love
ultimately about Cabe's is that
500
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,360
we've really created this sense
of belonging and family,
501
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,040
you know, within every single campus
across Australia.
502
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,600
And that is so important for students,
503
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,400
particularly international students,
when they're so far away from home
504
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,120
and it's so pivotal
to their well-being overall.
505
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,720
And I guess, you know, that's
why our students invited us to support
506
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:04,800
quality of educational experience
507
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,880
higher than every public university
in Australia. Yes.
508
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,560
You know, I would also say for Qubes
students and alumni,
509
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,400
from a well-being perspective,
I consider those careers
510
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,120
advisers are sort of
like a support network.
511
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,720
We've spoken in these podcasts
about well-being and reaching out
512
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:28,400
for help, taking advantage of support
and knowing who's on your side.
513
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,240
So I think it's important to acknowledge
that in the world of.
514
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,560
Careers, we have support, too.
515
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,960
And I am very frequently telling alumni,
516
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,200
take the opportunity,
you've got free careers counseling.
517
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,400
If you're not a Cabeus student
or graduate, it could be your colleagues
518
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:49,640
or your boss, but it shows the importance
of those interpersonal relationships.
519
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,120
Will, do you have any
anybody that you go to for support
520
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,640
or any tips on developing support network?
521
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,200
In my current role.
522
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:06,520
Absolutely. Alex Clark, who I think
is also appearing on this podcast,
523
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,920
the student experience will be Alex
is one of those ladies
524
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:16,800
who is a genuine mentor,
and he's always like a teacher.
525
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,440
Well, that's more a teacher than anything.
526
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,600
He doesn't necessarily manage
me, leads me any mentors, maybe teaches me
527
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,240
so I think in terms
528
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,040
of my own professional development
and personal development and well-being.
529
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,200
Having someone like Alex
just to as a sounding board to talk over
530
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:38,360
things is so critical to me
personally to be able to digest
531
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,640
and think of new ideas
and strategize with.
532
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,680
So he is integral
to that, to that process.
533
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,480
I put a lot of trust in Alex
to unconscious that.
534
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,080
I mean, before we talked about this idea
of, you know, when you're bored at work,
535
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,120
you need to be able to have those
really honest conversations and it starts
536
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,040
with you taking responsibility to have
those conversations with your boss.
537
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,400
I have a relationship
with Alex where I can go
538
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,360
in and say I'm not
stimulated at the moment.
539
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,160
Can you give me some more of it?
540
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,760
Or I'm interested in this project
and I love my success is there.
541
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,600
So building that relationship
with your network, your peers,
542
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,720
your colleagues at work,
your boss is really integral for you
543
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:25,040
to really make sure
that your career wellbeing is Lucasta.
544
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,320
Ultimately, it's
545
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,000
the employer's best interest to ensure
that you are engaged at work. Right.
546
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,080
Because we know that engagement work
547
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,840
results in more productive workers,
which impacts the businesses, bottom line.
548
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,760
So it's in the best interest
to make sure that you're engaged
549
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,600
and you're happy it works
and have the conversation you can.
550
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:45,520
And, you know, we're talking about
551
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,880
a network like I talk to family
and friends all the time.
552
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,240
I talk to, you know, other mentors
in the industry,
553
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,920
while other people from Korey's
backgrounds, Korey's practitioners.
554
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,400
I have a psychologist
as well who is amazing.
555
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,040
It's almost like a life coach.
556
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,560
Those people can really help you through
some of those deep, reflective questions
557
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,560
that we were going through before
and really allows you to understand
558
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,080
what your purpose
and your passions that you can address.
559
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,520
Some of those actions, those
those proactive actions
560
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,760
can move your your career forward
in the direction that you want to go.
561
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,160
It occurred to me, going back
to an earlier conversation we had, Will,
562
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:28,360
where you mentioned
563
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,240
that lecturer's themselves
are a good source of career guidance.
564
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,600
And we're talking about that network
565
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,040
of students who may not have a boss
like Alex can go to their lecturer.
566
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:39,400
Yeah, I've got to turn around
567
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,400
and say the reason why we're teaching
is because we love teaching.
568
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,480
A lot of us still have
careers in corporate.
569
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,440
We can give you that advice,
but we just need to be ask.
570
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,200
And it's really quite unusual
for a student to walk up
571
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,640
to a lecturer to ask that question.
572
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,040
Basically, what do you like about your job
and what you don't?
573
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,680
But if you did ask that question
in lectures would be quite forthcoming in
574
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,240
telling you a really honest answer.
575
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:10,040
So I, I did want to bring that in to
and reinforce your observation
576
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,240
that not only should you have a good boss,
but to reinforce your or build
577
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:15,960
your personal networks
like what you've done
578
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,160
with friends and family
and for that matter, psychologist.
579
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,800
Yes. And we have seen examples
of this friction
580
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:30,000
where students have built really strong
business relationships with lecturers,
581
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,000
with their sought advice from lecturers
who have entrepreneurship
582
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,080
backgrounds, with students, when to start
building businesses here in Australia.
583
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,040
And we've seen countless times
where lectures have been
584
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,240
professional references for us students
because they know them
585
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,280
so well, they welcome projects together
or, you know, they had them
586
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:50,560
as a student in the class
587
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,440
and they say they saw their portfolio
of work and things like that. So.
588
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,120
It's it's invaluable
to build those networks
589
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,520
when you are a student at CVS,
but that it's wide ranging.
590
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,840
And that network is
it's from lecture is it's
591
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,520
from peers that you're learning
with its campus staff.
592
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,360
It's Korey's advisees.
593
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,080
It's, you know, our leadership team
594
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,720
in caves and instructing those students
by their first name.
595
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,720
So you've really got
to make a lot of effort
596
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,600
to really make sure that you're nurturing
and building your professional network
597
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,680
here in Australia, because we know that
when you are new to Australia,
598
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,800
you don't necessarily
have a large network here.
599
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,120
So it's important that you take
those proactive steps to start building
600
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,280
that network when you do again.
601
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,240
You know, I've I'm lucky enough as well
to have have a really great manager.
602
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,360
But I want to ask
actually a bit of a difficult
603
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,120
question is what do I do
if I have a bad manager?
604
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,360
What should somebody do
if they're listening
605
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:55,880
and they've got somebody who just
really micromanages them or is emotionally
606
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,040
unstable to deal
with or something like that?
607
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:04,640
What can I do? Yeah, I've had one of those
managers churn and it was awful.
608
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,120
But you know, what I would say to
that is that I stayed in that role
609
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:09,640
for two and a half years.
610
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,720
And I kind of look back
and I think when I stated that long,
611
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:18,600
when he was that horrible,
he was awful, just a micromanager.
612
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,120
Just everything you would
hate about a boss.
613
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,640
But they exist, you know, and it's wild,
but they do exist
614
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,440
and maybe don't do what I do and sit
in that chair for two and a half years
615
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,480
and Kopit because it probably wasn't
very good for my mental wellbeing.
616
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,200
But I remember at that time, like I
you know, when it got bad,
617
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:39,800
like I started to really reach
618
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:45,240
out to my network and asked the questions
to say, look, I'm I'm in the market.
619
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,320
I'm looking for some new
opportunities, you know?
620
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,520
You know, it's thoroughly
enjoying my current work.
621
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,720
And I'm really looking
for new opportunities to grow and learn.
622
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,560
Yeah, well, just to finish off for me,
if there was one thing
623
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,680
that you could recommend for somebody
624
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,920
and they were saying, I want to take
my career to the next level,
625
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,600
what should I work on
as national careers manager?
626
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,080
What would you say?
627
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,840
Set aside Kieran's you know what?
628
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:18,200
It comes back to that same idea
of having a growth mindset
629
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,840
and being a lifelong learner.
630
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,840
Honestly, it's that it's really just
understanding that learning doesn't end.
631
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,680
It's just a continuous journey.
632
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,240
And you have to constantly losing
new opportunities to absorb new skills, to
633
00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:36,560
learn new things, meet new people for you
634
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,760
to be able to move your career forward
635
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,720
so that you can do what you really want
to truly do and be happy with that.
636
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,000
I love it. Keep on
learning, and it makes a lot of sense.
637
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,280
Well, thank you very much
for sharing with us today.
638
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,520
Well, I have learned a lot about career
639
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,160
well-being that I did not know before,
and it's really nice to get your insights.
640
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,280
Thank you. Will,
you caused me to reflect on my own career
641
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,760
and and think about what I wish
I would have done had I had your advice.
642
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:06,840
You already know having names.